Hi guys,

I just wanted to be the first to congratulate you on an excellent website, which I'm sure will prove to be a useful and valuable resource for USPSA NROI members for many years to come. Well done.


And, for what it's worth Troy, your ruling is right on the money!

DVC,
Vince Pinto
IPSC Secretary.

I wanted to be the first to post a comment, but Vince beat me to it. he is quick on those rules questions.

The new site looks sharp!

I'm happy to such a format on our web site. It gives a good place to review rules and ask questions about various situations. In the example given I fully agree with the call and the rule Troy cites. However, suppose the shooter stumbled but didn't totally fall. Further assume that the muzzle broke the 180 (while still in the holster), but did not point to a spot further then 1 meter from the shooter's feet. Would he still receive a DQ? The reason I ask is the wording in rule 10.5.6: "Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward
beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet
during drawing or reholstering." If it stays within the 1 meter, should we DQ the shooter? I know this applies to drawing and reholstering, and this may be splitting hairs, but this seems like a good forum to split hairs. Also consider that on occassion, some holsters may have a slight forward rake (particularly in US Production division) ... thus when the gun is in the holster its muzzle may be pointed slightly past the 180. How much leeway should the RO allow (if any) on muzzle angle while the gun is in a legal holster?

Once the competitor is no longer standing relaxed, I'd say that the 180 rules apply. The "rake" is covered by another rule, but also applies to a competitor standing relaxed. It's about the only place that there is an exception to the 180 rule. If the competitor was drawing at the time, then I'd suspect that the rule you cite, 10.5.6, would come into play.

Ultimately, this will boil down to the range officer's judgement as to whether the 180 was broken, and what call to make.
Troy

Thanks Troy ... The words "RO's Judgement" are the answer I would have hoped for. I'm a firm believer that we as RO's are required (even encouraged) to use judgement! Not every situation fits perfectly into the exact words of the rulebook.

While I do not wish to start a mess. I have a slight problem with Troy's interpretation of the rule. If we have a course of fire where a shooter has to proceed directly downrange in a cooper tunnel, the shooter using either a FBI cant or even a vertical holster would be DQ'ed since the muzzle in the holster will have broken that 1 meter circle which only applied on holstering and reholstering anyway per 10.5.6

If Troy's interpretation of 10.5.2 is correct, then why is 10.5.4 even required.
I guess the next time I bend over to pick-up my dropped mag before the start signal I will have to turn with my back to the targets or I will be DQ'ed for breaking the 180. I guess we will have to design a holster that pivots to keep the muzzle of the gun pointing directly down to the ground when people bend, stretch or squat.
Jay

If you have a cooper tunnel and you let the shooter run thru with a gun on his hip, you're asking for trouble because he might draw it when he's inside. He gets a dq but it's dangerous for others. I always have a target you must engage before the tunnel so that the shooter has his gun in his hand.

Isn't it just as legitimate to say that since the rule didn't SPECIFY holstered guns that they AREN'T covered by the rule?

I think the tunnel example is a good one to relate why this should not be a DQ. Rule 10.5.4 states that a competitor will be DQed for drawing his handgun within the confines of a tunnel.

This is because when bending over he will most likely break rule 10.5.5 which says that if the muzzle points rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter from a competitor’s feet during drawing or re-holstering. This means that when in the holster the competitors is fine with having the gun point more than 1 meter behind his as long as he doesn’t draw.

Note that in both these cases the muzzle is pointing PAST 90 degrees and the DQ is because of drawing the gun when the muzzle is passed 90, not because the muzzle broke the 90 degree plane while in the holster.

My ruling would not be a DQ here.

If a competitor stumbles, or bumps into the RO and falls, with a holstered gun, and the gun stays in the holster, I think it's silly, and a misinterpretation of the rules to DQ him. If his firearm is safe and his holster is approved for use in competition, then it does not pose a safety problem as long as the gun remains holstered.

A competitor may bend over while sitting down in a chair to assume the start position, or bend over to pick something up. If these are DQ offenses, then multiple DQs would be the norm at most local matches. If there is a conflict between the rule book and common sense, then lets change the rule book, not punish competitors.

Can someone please get all those spammers off the listserver? Permanently?

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