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Safe or Sorry?

QUESTION

After the "Make ready" command a competitor reaches below his/her holster and picks up on the holster allowing his/her fingers to be in front of the muzzle (i.e.: sweeping themselves). Has this competitor violated any unsafe gun handling rules? Rule 10.5.5.1 only mentions lower extremities below the belt.

What do you think? Answer will be posted soon, so chime in with your thoughts!

UPDATE -- ANSWER
Although watching someone grab the bottom of their holster with the loaded gun in there does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, it's not a violation either. The handgun while in the holster attached to a belt and on the competitor is considered inert, meaning completely inactive.

The same as crawling through a tunnel with the handgun loaded and holstered, the trigger is covered and the handgun cannot act without drawing it. I do think it may deserve some counseling as an unnecessary technique, along with someone having their hand over the ejection port while unloading and showing clear.

Thanks to all of you who played along! We'll get another question up soon.


November 11, 2009 12:51 PM

Comments

Good question...
Once the R.O has issued the "Make Ready" command, the course of fire has officially begun.
8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.
So regardless of weather the competitor is actually handling the pistol or it is "in" the holster, the fingers passed in front of the muzzle.

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at "any part" of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Results in a match D.Q.

According to rule 10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the “lower extremities” (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.

The exception is for allowing a sweep (while drawing) of the lower extremities. This was not a draw. Additionally, last I checked, the fingers are attached to the upper extremities, so the exception should not be considered valid.

The way I see it… The course of fire had begun and the competitor allowed the fingers to pass in front of the muzzle… sorry, but you would earn the D.Q.

Posted by: Larry Turner November 21, 2009 08:11 AM


I beleive it must be a DQ.

Posted by: Arthur L. Porter November 22, 2009 06:47 AM


10.5.5.1 only relates to a draw of the handgun and does not apply in this instance as an exception to sweeping. The competitor allowed the muzzle of the handgun to point at any part of his body by placing his fingers in front of the muzzle after the course of fire was started. 10.5.5 applies.
A match DQ must apply.

Posted by: Peter Brickner November 27, 2009 12:48 PM


I am sure this is a trick question and while I technically stand by my previous comments that a match DQ applies, I know it is unreasonable. I RO'd a match this past weekend and watched shooters and non shooters and their hand movement in/around and below the holster in loaded and unloaded conditions. I would have DQ'd most of the squad, including myself, for allowing their hand to be in front of the muzzle of a holstered handgun. Placing hands in the pockets for warmth was the most common occurrence. I tried to justify allowing this but can't find any rule to support anything but a DQ.

Posted by: Peter Brickner December 2, 2009 10:52 AM


I'll take the contrary position, for the sake of argument!

The handgun is safely in the holster. Sweeping implies actively handling and pointing the gun at a body part. The definition is "Pointing the muzzle..." implies action by the competitor to point the gun at himself, or part of himself.

To strictly apply 10.5.5 would make it nearly impossible to move. The exception ony applies while drawing or re-holstering. So, if I am getting ready by sitting in a chair or otherwise moving around and my muzzle sweeps my leg, aren't I disqualified? The muzzle swept my extremity but I was not drawing or re-holstering.

Another case to consider. Shooter is told to make ready. Handgun is holstered and ready. While adjusting his safety glasses he drops them and before the RO can do anything, he bends over to pick them up. While doing that, the holstered firearm violates rule 10.5.6 due to the gun pointing farther than 3 feet from his feet.

To DQ in this case too strictly applies the rule and defeats the spirit of the rule. Comes across as a "Gotcha!" and that's not what the sport is about.

No DQ.

Posted by: Randy Bayuk December 4, 2009 10:20 PM


The course of fire has started once the Make Ready command is given. Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s
body during a course of fire, whether caused by moving the muzzle to point at a portion of the body or by moving the body in front of the muzzle, is a match DQ under 10.5.2.

The only exception, for sweeping lower extremities when drawing or reholstering, does not apply.

It's a match DQ.

Posted by: Lee Bell December 7, 2009 09:10 PM


The course of fire has started once the Make Ready command is given. Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s
body during a course of fire, whether caused by moving the muzzle to point at a portion of the body or by moving the body in front of the muzzle, is a match DQ under 10.5.2.

The only exception, for sweeping lower extremities when drawing or reholstering, does not apply.

It's a match DQ.

Posted by: Lee Bell December 7, 2009 09:11 PM


The course of fire has started once the Make Ready command is given. Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s
body during a course of fire, whether caused by moving the muzzle to point at a portion of the body or by moving a portion of the body in front of the muzzle, is a match DQ under 10.5.2.

The only exception, for sweeping lower extremities when drawing or reholstering, does not apply.

It's a match DQ.

Posted by: Lee Bell December 7, 2009 09:11 PM


The strict interpretation would be a DQ as noted in several other responses. However, and this is a BIG however in my opinion, we don't know if the sweep occurred after the gun was un-holetered, loaded and re-holstered, or before the gun was un-holstered, and therefor unloaded. In the former case, sweeping a loaded gun, the rule would seem clear, a richly deserved DQ. In the latter case, even though the make ready command has been given, and technically the stage has started, the gun has still not been touched by the competitor, is unloaded, and the action, while not a good habit, is not inherently unsafe, nor has an advantage been gained. I would opt for a warning, similar in severity to "muzzle" or "finger". The holstered, unloaded sweep is no more unsafe than sctatching your ankle, or pulling up your sock, bewteen stages, which would also result in a sweep. Because it occurred after the "make ready" command I do think it must be treated officially, but the severity does not warrant a DQ in my opinion, hence my vote for a warning. In this case repeated infractions should incur more severe penalties, and ultimately a DQ, but not the first time, and this should be spelled out in the rules, not left to the RO's discretion.

Posted by: Scott Werner - CRO December 20, 2009 03:43 PM


I looked for this at our last match and the only place I saw this as an issue was with race holsters. The shooter is getting everything ready, holsters the gun in the rig, and will put his finger down by the muzzle to make sure the gun is seated on the bottom portion of the rig. For standard holsters, I didn't see an issue.

Interesting question. Look forward to hearing the NROI ruling on this one.

Posted by: Randy Bayuk December 24, 2009 09:42 AM


If the pistol was loaded and the shooter swept himself with a loaded firearm then man up as the RO and DQ the shooter, cheap lesson learned for the shooter. We as ROs have to #1. ID the problem and #2. Correct it.

As a side note I get to teach a lot of Officers of the Law and see this all the time, perhaps 90% of the LEA officers do this while holstered and they are loaded all the time! I understand they are trying to take weight off the belt but come on, there is a better way to adjust the belt. I mention it all the time to the officers as it really gets under my skin but they are big boys too and if thier department thinks it is ok then I can only warn them.

Sincerely,

Scott Hawkins

Yes, I do the best I can to fix the problem. As a onlooker (not an active RO) I will also correct other shooter and correct them when I can, thus helping the shooter and perhaps helping all see, ID and correct problems before they become a problem

Posted by: Scott Hawkins December 25, 2009 06:39 PM


Really good analysis Larry and I agree. The way I see it any "sweeping" is a Match DQ not matter how one slices and dices it. We're talking "safe" gun handling here, right?

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